大班语言老鼠娶新娘:从优秀到卓越

从优秀到卓越

第一讲：在中国，“优秀”是“卓越”的敌人吗？

财富》（中文版）董事长兼总编辑高德思（Thomas D. Gorman）独家采访管理大师吉姆•柯林斯（Jim Collins，因著有畅销书《从优秀到卓越》、《基业长青》而广为闻名）。吉姆•柯林斯就中国企业家面临的种种问题，包括领导力、继任计划、商业教育、核心价值等提出了一系列广泛而深刻的看法和建议。敬请关注！

双语访谈实录：

Thomas D. Gorman: First of all, I want to thank you for taking time to be with us today and particularly I know you're in "monk mode", as it has been described, and it's a very special generosity that we appreciate.

Jim Collins: I am in monk mode.

Thomas D. Gorman: This really is as I see it, a continuation of a conversation that we began very briefly in 2001.

Jim Collins: 2001.

Thomas D. Gorman: After you gave an inspired and I think an inspiring presentation to the Fortune Global Forum, which was held that year in Washington, DC. And 2001 stands out because you had published "Good to Great".

Jim Collins: Yep.

高德思：首先我想向你表示感谢，谢谢你今天抽出时间接受我们的采访，我知道你正处于“闭关”的思考状态，所以我们对此尤为感激。

吉姆·柯林斯：我确实是在“闭关”思考。

高德思：在我看来，这次对话可以看作我们2001年那次简短谈话的延续。


吉姆·柯林斯：2001年。

高德思：那一年，在华盛顿举办的《财富》全球论坛（Fortune Global Forum）上，你做了非常精彩、而且非常鼓舞人心的发言，然后我们简短交谈过。之所以强调2001年，是因为你在那一年出版了《从优秀到卓越》。


吉姆·柯林斯：是的。

Thomas D. Gorman: And that was the subject of your presentation, which was a very memorable presentation. 2001 was of course also a very momentous year for China, it was the year that China entered the World Trade Organization, and that was a historic catalyst for all kinds of changes, including in the economics sphere, investment sphere and in terms of integration of China with the world economy.
Looking back to that period of time, we had ten Chinese companies on the Fortune Global 500 list. By contrast in 2009 we had 37. That's incredible growth, obviously, in a very short period of time.
And in that same time span -- 2001 to 2009 -- 50%, actually more than 50% growth in the number of publicly listed Chinese's companies. Whether listed abroad or in the domestic market, so also a lot of change there. Meanwhile, we've just been through the most turbulent period the world economy has seen in living memory.

Jim Collins: Yeah.

Thomas D. Gorman: So all of these things strike me as giving us a very opportune moment in which to consider the principles of greatness that you have written about, so eloquently, how they may apply to this phenomenal growth of the Chinese corporate universe, and also, in the context of the current turbulence that we're living through, which I know is the subject of the book you're working on now.

Jim Collins: It's sort of about the permanent turbulence I think we'll be in.

Thomas D. Gorman: Right. So I thought this would be a great place to revisit some of these subjects and I can't think of a better place to start, than the first sentence of "Good to Great" which is of course, "Good is the enemy of great" and I'd be interested in your thoughts about the universality of that. Do you think that applies as much to companies in China or any other country as it does to the (U.S. company) research set that lead you to that observation?

Jim Collins: Well, we were speaking a moment ago about the rise of the business group in China today, and how there are business leaders who want to build a great company.
And there's a big difference between having a good company that is successful or just being a successful person, or just making a lot of money, and building a great institution, a great company, something that in my mind, a really great company is all about, in the end is a company that delivers such exceptional results. And makes such a distinctive impact on the world it touches. Whether it's a small world or a big world, that if you took it away, it would leave an unfillable hole that couldn't be filled by any other institution. That you've built something that is truly distinctively special and exceptional in how well it performs.
And that you can't do by simply saying, good enough is, you have to say, no, in order to really be indispensable, to truly reach that point, where something would be lost if we went away.
That requires a dedication to building something far more than just successful, which is: a great company.

高德思：那也是你发言的主题，让人难以忘怀。当然2001年对中国来说，也是非常值得纪念的一年。中国加入了世贸组织，这对各种变革来说都是历史性的催化剂，作用于经济、投资以及中国与世界经济大环境融合等各个方面。

回首那一时期，有10家中国企业名列《财富》世界500强排行榜。形成鲜明对比的是，到2009年，这个榜单上有了37家中国企业。在如此短的时间内，实现这样的增长让人感到难以置信。

在相同的时间跨度里，从2001年到2009年，中国的上市公司数量增加了50%还要多，包括在国外和国内上市的，同样产生了巨大的变化。与此同时，我们经历了当代人记忆中世界经济最为混乱的时期。









吉姆·柯林斯：是的。

高德思：这些变化都深深地触动了我们，让我们利用这个适宜的契机，去思考你写到的“卓越”的基本原则，思考如何将这些原则应用到中国快速成长的商业环境中，或是用这些原则来解释当前动荡的大环境，而我知道，这也是你手头正在创作的那本书的主题。





吉姆·柯林斯：在我看来这种经济动荡会一直持续下去。

高德思：对。所以我想，现在我们可以重温其中的一些主题。我能想到的最好的开场白，莫过于《从优秀到卓越》书中的第一句话：“优秀是卓越的敌人。”我很想知道，你是否认为这句话是放之四海而皆准的。通过观察一组美国公司，你得出了这些结论。你是否认为这一原则也适用于中国或其他任何国家的企业？





吉姆·柯林斯：我们刚刚谈到了当今中国商业集团的崛起，谈到许多商业领袖想要建立卓越的企业。

做一家成功的公司、做一个成功的人、或挣一大笔钱，与建立一家卓越的机构、一家卓越的企业之间存在着很大的区别。在我看来，一家真正卓越的企业，归根结底就是能够产生优异的业绩，并且对其所接触的领域会产生巨大的影响。无论这个领域是小是大，一旦这家企业不在了，它将留下一个无法填补的空洞，其他任何机构都无法填补。因为这家企业的表现超凡脱俗，它建立起了真正与众不同的、特殊的价值。

为了实现“卓越”，你不能说“我们已经够好了”。你必须得说“还不够”，如此才能让你的企业变得不可或缺，才能在你们离开时，让大家觉得缺少了什么。

这需要企业家身全心投入进去，建立一家远远超越“成功”这个层次的企业，也就是我们所说的卓越的企业。

第二讲：发现并界定第五级领导人
第四级经理人是优秀的领导者、管理者，兼具团队精神和个人能力。除此之外，还有更高的一层，这些人兼备谦逊的品质和雄心壮志——一种绝对意义上的、几乎带有强迫性的、强烈得无法估量的雄心壮志，而且并非为了一己私利。这就是“第五级领导”。

双语访谈实录：

Thomas D. Gorman: You've written that every good to great company had a level 5 leader, as you called them, at the pivotal point of transition.

Jim Collins: Yep.

Thomas D. Gorman: And I'd like to have you explain a little bit about, what are the key attributes of a level 5 leader?

Jim Collins: Yeah.
Well, first I want to sort of go back for where that idea came from. And on two dimensions, first just kind of something about how we look at the world and then how that led us to see this thing that I wasn't looking for. And it's very important to start with, this wasn't something I wanted to find, expected to find, anticipated finding, it was a surprise. But, it's a surprise that came out of a very empirical approach that we take in our work.

高德思：你曾写到，每一家从优秀到卓越的公司，都有一位“第五级领导者”，在这种转变过程中起到了关键的作用。


吉姆·柯林斯：是的。

高德思：我希望你能解释一下，一位第五级领导者的关键特征是什么？


吉姆·柯林斯：好的。

从两个方面来看。首先是关于我们如何看世界，以及这种世界观如何引领我们发现这个理论。必须先说明的是，这并不是我当初想要寻找的方向，而是个意外的发现。然而，由于我们在工作中，采用了一种非常实证主义的研究方法，才有了这个意外的发现。

第三讲：卓越领导者的关键特质

第五级领导不一定都是谦虚、内向的，也不一定都缺乏领袖魅力，但他们都有一股坚毅的精神，能够做出痛苦的决定。

双语访谈实录：

Thomas D. Gorman: Am I right that you found that those level 5 leaders, virtually all of them, had the personal attribute of humility as well? Or, is it more that they were overshadowed by institutional ambition?

Jim Collins: They were, I would say, that it was, they had a form of humility in the sense, I want to be really clear, is not a kind of humility that is necessarily an external package that you can see. We found a lot of different types.
Let's just pause on this point, because I think it's very important.
It's not about your external demeanor. Most of the level 5's were in fact this is what got us thinking about them -- most of them were more, sort of, plow horse than show horse. Often they were shy, often they were not particularly magnetic personalities, they were people who were socially awkward.

高德思：你是否觉得这些第五级领导者几乎都具有谦卑的品质？还是说他们更多地被笼罩在企业目标的阴影之下？




吉姆·柯林斯：他们的确都具有某种形式的谦卑品质，我想特别说明的是，他们的这种谦卑，你不一定从外表上看得出来。而且我们发现了许多不同的表现类型。

让我们对此多言几句，因为我觉得这一点非常重要。

这种谦卑和一个人的外在举止无关。大部分的第五级领导者都是实干型，而不是做秀型，这一点引起了我们的沉思。他们中的许多人很害羞，许多人的个性非但不具有吸引力，甚至不太善于社交。

Jim Collins: I mean, Darwin Smith at Kimberly Clark, was just kind of strange. He's idea of a good social event was to sit by himself on a tractor and move rocks from one end of the property to another. I mean, that was his idea of a good time. That was his idea of socializing, right? To move rocks about, and when asked about his style, he just simply said, "eccentric." He's not your sort of smooth guy and yet he was one of these great leaders.
But on the other hand, you have someone like Anne Mulcahy, of Xerox, who is somebody who I greatly admire, who was dealt a very difficult set of cards. Company in real difficult straights, may be going away, company with great historic track record. And Anne really brought Xerox back and she though, she is magnetic, she's social. I've seen her in front of hundreds and thousands of people having them like weeping and stomping and cheering and with a sense of goose bumps.
And you ask yourself, what is the awkward Darwin Smith riding around on his tractor, and Anne Mulcahy, who is this magnetic, wonderful person, who just makes you feel good when you walk into a room, what do they share in common, that makes them different?
It's not about them. And, that is really the difference.
Both of them care deeply about doing whatever it took to build or to rebuild something into a great stature that would go on beyond them. And that in the end, really stood for something.
Their extra little personality traits, really different. But, that inner drive and the steely determination -- same.
You meet Anne Mulcahy and she's a nice person, but boy, whatever difficult decisions need to be made to save Xerox, she would make them, and they were very painful. She said, "I don't ever want those decisions to become easy." It's not that they were easy, it's just they had to be done.
And when Darwin Smith sold the mills, hundreds of years of company history, it's not that is was easy, but as he said, "If you have a cancer in your arm, you have to have the guts to cut off your own arm." Right?
So the level five is someone, we don't want to sort of get caught up on the fact, that they are necessarily, self-effacing, necessarily shy, that they necessarily have a charisma by-pass. They may or may not have those external attributes, but it's the internal drive, it's not about them, they have the relentlessness to make very painful decisions.
And finally, the humility comes in the form of never feeling they've got all the answers worked out, and always feeling they're on the edge of potential catastrophe. And that helps keep their edge, that they are very aware of the brutal facts all the time.

吉姆·柯林斯：金佰利公司的达尔文•史密斯就是一个有些奇怪的人。在他看来，如果让他一个人坐在拖拉机上，把石头从一块地的这头运到那头，就算是一次很好的社交活动。这就是他心目中的惬意时光，就是他的社交观念。当人们问他是什么风格的人，他只是简单地回答：“（我是）特立独行的人”。显然他不是一个善于社交的人，但是这不妨碍他成为一位卓越的领导者。

不过卓越的领导者中也有像施乐公司（Xerox）的安妮•马尔卡希（Anne Mulcahy）这样的人物。我对她非常欣赏。她面对的是一个棘手的烂摊子。她当年担任CEO时，施乐这样一家曾经十分辉煌的公司正深陷困境，而且还有破产的可能。不过安妮却将施乐从破产的边缘挽救了回来。她是一个富有魅力、并非常擅于社交的人。我曾经见过她面对成百上千的听众，令他们激动得时而流泪、时而跺脚、时而又欢呼。

我会问自己：这位不善交际、开着拖拉机瞎转悠的达尔文•史密斯，还有这位迷人的、让所有人如沐春风的安妮•马尔卡希女士，他们身上究竟有什么共性使得他们如此与众不同？

答案就是，他们的奋斗目标都不在于自身。这就是真正的区别。

他们更为关注如何建立或重建某项事务，然后将其提升到一个卓越的、超越自身的高度，为此不惜付出任何代价。这就是最终起作用的因素。

他们的性格也许各有不同。但重要的是他们都有内在的驱动力和钢铁般的决心。

安妮•马尔卡希是个非常温和的人，但如果为了挽救施乐公司，不管要做多么艰难的决策，她都不会皱一下眉头，而这些过程往往是非常痛苦的。她说：“我从不指望这些决策会变得简单。”这些决策从来没有简单过，但是再艰难也非做不可。

比如，达尔文•史密斯卖掉了公司所有的造纸厂。这不是一个容易的决定，这些造纸厂代表着金佰利公司几百年的历史。然而他指出：“如果你的胳膊上长了恶性肿瘤，你就必须有胆量切掉整只胳膊。”对吗？

所以第五级领导者是这样一种人，我们不能只专注于他们的外在层面，比如他们是否谦逊、是否害羞、或是魅力四射。他们完全可能没有这些外在属性，因为他们的内在驱动力与这些外在特点无关。关键是他们可以坚忍不拔，义无反顾地做出极为痛苦的决定。

最后，他们之所以谦逊，是因为他们从不认为已经解决了所有的问题，而是永远如履薄冰。这种态度令他们一直处于领先优势，因为他们对现实的残酷程度一直保持清醒的认识。